American Van Lines

The bottom line? NO, NO, NO!!! DON'T USE THEM!!! DON'T DO IT!!! The whole story; We needed to move from Birmingham, AL to Denver, CO. After getting several quotes, we called American Van Lines- they were not quite the least expensive- they were mid-priced but they are a national "brand name" and that seemed safer. We spoke to someone on the phone to get the quote, then we were assigned to an account manager. We had a lot to move- a 4 bedroom house and a home business so he said we would have the movers at the house on Sunday to pack AND Monday to load. Because we moved for a new job we couldn't be gone long. Had to fly back Tuesday and we explained that. We also explained the house closing was on Tuesday so we had to be gone by closing time. We are very careful and wrote it all down, then confirmed: Sunday and Monday. Great. Paid them 50% down, flew to Atlanta late Friday, and rented a car to drive to Birmingham ( flights are much less out of Atlanta). We needed to have some things hauled to Goodwill on Saturday by a local company. Saturday American Van Lines called to confirm, "Be there Monday morning, 9am". What??? No, we told them, you said Sunday to pack, Monday to load. They said they could do it in a day. We have moved to different states five times and were pretty sure it would take more than one day, but it was "Go Time" so we had to agree to it. Our account manager said they would be there 9:00 Monday morning. Well... Monday morning came. 9am, no movers. 10am, no movers. 11am, called left a message. No movers, no call back. 12 noon we call again and are told the truck broke down the night before and they would be there Tuesday morning- THE DAY WE HAD TO FLY BACK TO COLORADO. They knew the truck wasn't coming, and didn't have the decency to call and let us know. We had to call them (twice!) when they were 4 hours late to find out they weren't coming! And, with all the contractors they use, they didn't even try to resolve the problem. We fired them and, in a panic, got on the phone to the realtor, the airlines, the hotel and the guys that hauled our stuff to Goodwill- they had mentioned they were now doing moving services. Someone came out that afternoon and gave us a quote and were there the next day. They packed and loaded from 8am until 2 o'clock in the morning- that's 18 hours!!! We did a lot of packing ourselves Saturday and Sunday and that helped the loading time tremendously- It would've been even longer. American Van Lines didn't want to give a refund, but they did give it to us in the end. So at least that was good. But look at what it cost us when they failed to do their job; Airfare- a flight back cost us an additional $525 Hotel- additional days, $150 (they gave us the special rate) Rental car- Our great deal was only for the original time period. The extra days were $200 Kennel expenses- 3 extra days for 2 dogs was $150. Vacation Time- My husband's company gave him 3 days off with pay to move- with the weekend it should have been more than enough. Still not sure, but the extra 2 days may come out off his PTO. So that is an extra $1025 we had to shell out because of American Van Lines. Not to mention the stress above and beyond what you have with a "normal" move. American Van Lines made our move a financial and emotional nightmare and they just walked away, no admission of wrongdoing or even an apology. They are deceitful, irresponsible and callous. You are warned.

It went really well. They were good and thorough everything made it here. I would use them again and I would recommend them to everybody I know. They were very fast and efficient. They had clean trucks and everything was packed up nicely! They were very good!

- We were told our move could take place on a Sunday. That is actually the day their crew resets their hours and only 48hrs ahead of time were we informed that we needed to move on Saturday instead. - The rep pointed out that American Van Lines is the company to move you from A-Z and said they never subcontract out. This was not true as our dealings from then on out were with an entirely different company. - We were told that everything was itemized and weight was an estimate. The rep said that we were bound at a maximum to the contract price but that after weigh-in it could be less. This was UNTRUE. The movers arrived and asked for the same amount of money even though I was under the estimated weight. The crew told me "it was all lies". A supervisor got on the phone and agreed to honor the actual weight. Then I was sent a document to sign stating that in exchange for the reimbursement I would never speak badly about the company!! It is a form of bullying to try to silence customers. - We were told by the rep that the delivery window was 5-7 days "max" however once our items were picked up and stored we received a document that stated a much larger window. Our things ended up arriving on the 7th day of the window with less than 24hrs notice. - Boxes were pretty banged up and several items broke, but everything was accounted for. I would also say that the crew who initially picked up our things was professional and courteous and did a good job.

WORST EXPERIENCE AND COMPANY EVER! 1. May 31st, Damage to apartment on move out in front of landlord resulting in deduction from security deposit. I filed official complaint/report that day. Photos etc. Landlord sent letter confirming incident. Almost 2 months later and no refund, and no response to my repeated attempts to follow up. 2. Signed a binding contract. On contract they gave latest date of delivery as Monday June 13th. I was told the week before the movers would arrive Saturday or Sunday the 11th or 12th so I sat there all weekend. No contact. No returns calls to my messages or emails. No contact from anyone in the company until end of day 4:45PM ON the 13th at which point they didn't even know where my stuff WAS let alone when it would arrive. 3. That week I filed a complaint about the delay. Living in an empty house for 1 week I expected, not 2. Added expense of hotel for my mother. My customer service rep had not returned calls or emails for a week. I was offered $350 and told that is far more then I should be offered for the inconvenience (hotel stay for mother, eating out for an extra week etc etc). I was then sent a legal order to sign that instructed I was to never review them in a negative light on any forum if I wanted my money. I refused. 4. Saturday June 18th movers finally call they are here. 3rd party moving company that AVL outsourced to and blamed for all the problems by the way. Despite me having an entire empty construction lot next door opened for their use I was told that the "truck won't fit, so they needed to do a shuttle service". Driver told me AVL would have been aware of this from the day I signed the contract as the address was in center city Philadelphia, his truck doesn't fit and they should have planned for it. Driver was then faxed the gag order again and told he MUST get me to sign it if I wanted my stuff!!!! . I again refused and luckily Driver did not intend to withhold my goods but his company then directed him to charge me an additional $2,000 more in order to have my things "shuttled" from truck to my house 1 mile away. 5. The amount of furniture broken while coming off the truck was SO extensive a mover said "I have never seen so much damage in one move in all my life" Boxes marked FRAGILE came off ruck crushed and looked like they had been run over. MASSIVE amounts of crystal, china, glassware all packed securely in bubble wrap were destroyed. Frames on art, broken mirrors etc. Finally BOTH flat screen televisions from my apartment, packed BY THE MOVERS were destroyed. (I had to pay $60 to recycle them and of course buy a new TV). 6. Communication with the company expressing my displeasure, list of damages and that there was limited to no communication with me regarding delay or initial damage claim from FL have all been completely ignored. Even when I emailed that we discovered watches and jewelry missing from my mothers jewelry tower and I wanted to speak to a manager immediately - all IGNORED! I have given them a MONTH before writing this review. Damages that can be added up in dollar amounts: Damage to apartment and loss of deposit: $250 2 Broken televisions (1 six months old) :$600 Cost to recycle: $60 Extra cost for move in day: $2,000 Cost of broken furniture, antiques, chairs, table legs, art frames, mirrors, glass, china and crystal; far too much irreplaceable to determine. The photos attached are only a small sampling of damage.

The move went perfectly! The movers were extremely professional and courteous. They were very careful with all of my belongings and did not damage anything. I have been using American Van Lines for the past 10 years with all of my moves and I recommend them all the time to my family and friends! I am always a satisfied customer when they move me.

I originally hired Atlas Moving and they sent American Van Lines to move me instead. When I questioned why, I was told that they are a parent company and that they sent who was available. They were very unprofessional. They damaged my furniture. They ended up getting their trucks stuck in my lawn. My lawn was ripped up in two places. They had to use my pick up truck to pull their trucks out of my lawn.

I had written a review prior to this because there were several issues we encountered with this move, the company that we contracted with at time of contract did not mention that we could be subbed with another mover, this happened. The other company did not have a professional looking truck, it was pretty rough looking. The loading of our belongings went smoothly and the crew were professional. We had to make the drive from CA to NC in 4 days, with 2 cars and a pet. This was another thing we had not counted on and were told that if we could not meet the date we would pay a high penalty because of their loss of another load. We made the time constraints.. The off loading crew were not organized and did not work well together-too much talking and they were there late. We realized the next day we were missing 4 items, the driver was called and he confirmed they had them, said he would return them on his next trip through-that took 2 1/2 months. I had to call customer service and had one rep that was very helpful. After writing this review, we received a call last week from the President of American Van Lines, Anthony DiSorbo, he had just seen our review on Angie's List and wanted to know what had happened. I spoke with him and went over the concerns we had. He reached out to us in a very professional way and asked if he could compensate us for our problems and the one damaged item. .I felt that this was extremely rare for someone at the top of their company to do and my husband and I were very impressed with his sincerity and wanting to make things right with us . We feel that this act was what will drive their company in a positive way and hopefully result in more positive reviews. I give Mr. DiSarbo an A+ for reaching out to us. Thank you. Pam Mullis

We used American Van Lines in March 2015 to move from Florida to Georgia and the overall experience was very good, so we had no hesitation using them again moving from Georgia to Arizona. This too was a positive outcome. Would definitely Recommend.

This company was very professional and did a wonderful job.

They were fabulous! I have never used a moving company that can speak so highly of.

Everything they moved out here arrived in perfect condition, including a Grandfather clock that I had bought in Germany. They did all of the wrapping and packing. They repacked some of the things that had been packed by another packing company there in Augsta Georgia. I was just impressed with the professionalism and the packing and the timeliness.

was told that my stuff would be picked up on the 15th of June and delivered on July 6 2013 but it took them until July 17 to deliver it and told me if I wanted my things I would have to pay the full price for the move even though they didn't fulfill their end of the contract it's only 2655 mile trip should have only taken 4 to 5 days when I would call American Van Lines or B&B Transport to see about my things I would get the old run around then when I would ask to speak to a supervisor at American Van Lines the supervisor would give me attitude and tell me to call the driver

I did not really like them. I will not hire them again. It is hard to reach customer service and they promise what they can not do, and they broke and lost some of my stuff. They contacted movers on my behalf. For the long distance move, the movers were pretty good. For the other move, they were not very good. The packing skills were not that good but they were nice people. It was not a total disaster. They had a good price.

I hired this Company to move my family from Charlotte, NC to Rochester, NY. My first mistake was that they did not come to the house to do an estimate. Everything was over the phone. So of course the quote she gave me was wrong - too low on the weight. The truck showed up as they said they would. The driver was immediately rude and distasteful his helper however, I will say was a nice gentleman. The driver informed me after looking at everything that I had I would be overweight and that he could save me from the Company screwing me over (as he proceeds to tell me how awful this Company is and he can?t wait to quit). He informs me they will be charging me at least $1,000 or more but if I give him $600 cash he can make it so they will not charge me any more money???? I?m like what? How the heck can you hide that I?m over my estimated weight? it just seemed extremely shady to me. Plus the fact that I?m a single mother and this move had spent every last penny I had. I had no additional funds to fork out. (Not that I would have given him a penny). So I told the guy to leave certain items behind so that I would not have the additional charges. After, I had told him to leave out half of my items he started to feel bad I guess because he told me I could probably add items back in and be okay. I had a few new pieces of furniture and they appeared to be taking care of it when packing and wrapping things. Well, that?s a joke because by the time everything arrived in NY Two Weeks later!! Every single one of my new items were broken! My Marble top Dining table and 2 of the four Chairs, My Bed and my leather couch! They even tried to repair my bed I can see where they painted it (of course they did not mention a thing to me about it). Everything looked great before we left Charlotte. Now it all is in horrible condition. I wish I would have never bought new furniture before my move and just sold everything and bought all new furniture in NY. I tried complaining to the company about what there driver was trying to do with asking me to pay him cash. They did not apologize; they did absolutely NOTHING about him trying to extort money out of me. In fact one woman told me that she did not believe me that he was great guy . Dealing with their corporate office was an absolute nightmare every single time I spoke with them. Not to mention being tossed around from one person to another and one person would say one thing another would say something completely different. The whole experience was awful. I would NEVER recommend them and I absolutely will never hire them again.

Movers were over a day late. Banged up several places of furniture-delivered a cultivator which was not ours. Omitted a rug which was ours.

They did a terrible job and refused to deliver where we wanted them to. The driver was very rude, mouthy, and even cursed at me. He even already had a full explanation of where he was delivering to and agreed to it and then when the time came, they did not. A $500 mirror I had was missing and I also ended up with some things that were not ours. They were in a huge rush and didn't give us time to look things over efficiently because damage was done and they didn't want to claim it. There was no recourse by the time I discovered what had happened. The guy even asked for my vacuum cleaner as a tip. I would never ever use them again.

I just met them online when I was getting ready to move. It was a little complicated and I cannot explain it. They took two and a half months to deliver my furniture, and they lost my big screen TV and some other little minor items, and they also ruined my furniture with gashes and scratches, and I have all the pictures that I am submitting to all of the different attorney generals’ offices because there is nothing else legally I have been told by an attorney that I can actually do, so that is really comforting, but I don’t know now I am having to present proof that I actually had a television. Although they have it listed on the manifest, they did not put, and I didn’t notice it because I have never moved across the country before. I did not notice that they did not put the size screen of the TV. They just put flat screen TVs, two of them, and they had them in separate boxes of audio. So the little one came, but not the big one and the movers had even told me when they came here; they said on the last load there was a sofa and a chair missing. I would never use their services again in the future and tell every body not to use their services, and I have also posted a negative feedback on Facebook regarding the same.

They were horrible and we would never recommend them ever. They do a lot of subcontracting and they don't inform the clients that they actually subcontract their job out to smaller moving companies. We had a very bad experience with the company. They were hard to get a hold of once you paid your money in and it was not a very pleasant move. Their customer service in the beginning was very helpful when we started, but once we got the quote we found that it didn't match what we would end up paying. We never knew that our job was to be subcontracted to kind of like two college students. It was a nightmare and I hope that no one has to go through that kind of stuff. We thought that it was a national company and I think it was the availability and time that pushed us to use that company. It wasn't that that they had a lot of good reviews but we didn't see too many negative reviews either. I would tell others to definitely ask them if they are going to subcontract their job to smaller companies and to ensure that company is going to have the same care and consideration for your valuables.

1/4 of my items were not delivered (8/37). On July 25th I was told that my delivery would occur on the 26th. I called to say that I would not be in town could they do the 28th or 27th. They refused emphatically. I had to find someone or have my stuff stored at my expense and find a way to move it from there to my house at my time and expense myself. There was no compromise and no wiggle room. They had a schedule to keep. "Ken" would not look into it or change it. So being new here and not knowing anyone I asked the superintendent who does not have english as her first language. I called the moving guy the day of the move and left a message and got no reply. When I got home the 27th and counted my stuff I was significantly short. I called to leave a message and received no reply. I called this morning the 28th and spoke to a bored sounding woman who refused to give me a number to talk someone in claims to hear the entire process of locating my things, to talk to her boss or anyone in claims, or the owner of the company (even the name!). Bad service and bad customer service. Apparently instead of talking to clients they prefer to do it by correspondence via email, fax, or mail. This is unacceptable especially since the service was not done correctly . Over all I've been treated like a number once they had my stuff they essentially had a hostage and treated me like a supplicant to be dictated to and dismissed and since they have my check they intend to do nothing apparently. Also, my table is scratched on the sides and my mattress has water stains that it didn't have before - which is no wonder- since they didn't wrap it very well.

I would not recommend them. They promised me that they would come on one particular day and they didn’t come. When they did come, they came late. I had to spend an extra night and extra day in the hotel because they didn’t come to pack. When I called them, they told me that they would give me $30 for hotel fee. All I was asking for was reimbursement of the hotel room charges. They charged me more when I got here. We just had them move everything to the street because it was so late. When I called, they did not even answer the phone. They told me that they were on their way. Then they called me two hours late and told me that they had a flat tire on their van. I would not use their services again in the future.

As I was dealing with American Van Lines's estimators, the estimate kept going up until we had an estimate of 8200 pounds of household goods - very high but based on the refund policy I went with it. The agreement was the truck was to be weighed empty, loaded, then re-weighed at a CAT-certified scale. Then their contracted mover, All-Coast Moving, showed up late. They offered me no weight documents in Houston. All-Coast loaded my stuff and left. A few days later they called up and told me the weight was another 500 pounds heavier, resulting in higher fees. I immediately invoked my right to re-weighing here. End result was I got my goods in reasonably good shape - I have no complaint about the service - but the reweigh was 2800 pounds lighter than they told me. To date, I've received my refund from American Van Lines but their contractor has not paid, rather alleges they have paid but refuse to return my calls and can't provide me documentation of their payment of the money back to the credit card. I realize I'm violating the guideline of talking about two companies in one post but in order to tell the story, I must. Dealing with American Van Lines is easy on the front end but beware their contractors! Updating, once I finally got American Van Lines' attention, they were helpful in getting the carrier to send me a check for the amount they overcharged. The confusion about American Van Lines' refund arose from the Contractor's business practice of transferring all quality issues back to American Van Lines, so the service agent at American Van Lines was seeing that a refund had been sent out. Once that was clarified, American Van Lines did help in getting the refund, two months after the discovery I was owed one. I upgraded AVL's rating to an overall "C", again, not because of AVL's actions specifically, but due to their poor choice of subcontractors.

At time of the move, which was December, I was informed that they assigned my job to All Coast Transporters (which were great)---AVL were not moving me and I owed $6,000.00 more. The initial $2,000 did not go towards this cost. The $2,000 was referred to as ?booking fee?. This company misrepresented themselves.

Mike had urged me to go to Home DePot to provide my moving material which was way cheaper than using company materials. I did - They NEVER used a single box of mine, none of my tape and none of my bubble wrap. SUPPLIES ALONE WERE $450ish!!!!!! Long story short-they sent 3 young men - Not professional movers. In fact, one guy said this was his first "real move" and then told me HE WAS ON PROBATION FOR DRUG ACTIVITY!!!!!!!!! AND HE WAS AS VERIFIED ON THE HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY ARREST RECORD SITE..... None of the guys knew they were to help pack. They "laughed at the bid" and said the company ALWAYS over-charges without customer knowledge of all the "additional expenses". And if you don't pay, they told me they just lock the truck until you pay. They told me of the move they did the night before in Ft. Myers. A young guy moving back somewhere home after college. That he had been quoted like $1,200 - and the bill rang up to close to $3,000 - he didn't have the money so they put the lock on it and waited for several hours. The young man had to have money wired to him from his mother. Back to my move....They arrived 2 hours late to my move (although they did call to ask if that would be OK)...... By the end of 7 hours, they told me that the truck was full and they have to come back the next day - mind you, over half the job wasn't done...... then I walked out to the truck and see the furniture from the other move was in the truck!!!!! And that I'd have to pay for another day AND pay the $89.oo for driving again a second time just 15 miles. UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!! They were also aware (as was Mike) that the move needed to be done THAT DAY-THAT MY X-HUSBAND'S MOVERS WERE COMING THE NEXT DAY TO PACK AND MOVE HIM - WE WERE CLOSING AFTER HIS THINGS WERE OUT. Since I had met my minimum I Let them go after they delivered my few things to my storage. All that was moved was my China Cabinet, an entertainment center (no tv) - with 1 piece missing and another broken. A washer/dryer (the water softener piece missing) A dining room table, and a couch/love seat. And a Chair and several boxes. THAT WAS ABOUT IT!!!! I ultimately had to have 8 men come over and finish my move that night AFTER I HAD TO RENT A TRUCK FROM U-HAUL. I SPOKE ENDLESSLY WITH A MANAGER NAMED GIL......ABOUT THE SLICKEST "MANAGER" I HAVE EVER SPOKEN TO!!!! He was horrendous - even said he'd call the police for "harrassment" - what I called about was WHY HE SENT A GUY WHO HAD BEEN ARRESTED INTO MY HOME WITH VALUABLES......Also all the additional fees!!!! And the truck that was 1/2 way full with someone elses furniture. When I say slick, I mean dishonest, "vague", ultimately close to yelled at me. Said they owed me nothing other than a phone call to the police; of which I said I'd be happpy to call. Then he wanted me to PROVE that the young man was arrested. Can you imagine a "manager" challenging a customer to PROVE something about an employee????? I told him to go to the web site and there's the guys' mug-shot. When I asked to speak to his boss, he said he IS the boss. When I asked him to speak to the owner of the company he said thats the "stock holders" - HELLO, THEY ARE NOT A PUBLICLY TRADED COMPANY!!!!!!!!!! When I checked that and called him back, he went bonkers on me.......I asked for an appointment to see him/ his boss/ or the owners, and he just kept saying NO. NO. NO. I think you can see what a HORRENDOUS experience this was - PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.....SAVE YOURSELF THE AGRIVATION AND THE MONEY. Because "Mike the Salesman" seemed so professional and helpful on the phone, I WAS AN ABSOLUTE IDIOT NOT TO RESEARCH THE COMPANY. I was not on Angie's List at the time (I was a member prior) AND I RE-SIGNED UP JUST TO REPORT THIS. (Although I have also used the list for many services and every company I have ever used from Angie's List has been nothing but SUPERIOR service.) Best of Luck for anybody moving - it's tough enough without having to deal with American Van Lines!!!!!! Thank you for reading this! Respectfully submitted, Alexis, Tampa/Zephyrhills PS - My X-husband used ATLAS Van Lines; and yes, they were professional, worked quickly, wrapped everything properly and were "out" in about 6 hours. And they vacummed leaving his areas immaculate! You may want to consider them for your move.

Horrible! I fell victim to a moving scam!! Maria Gonzalez/AVL on February 9 assured me that that AVL was not some front company or some broker, assured me that AVL would take American Express as payment for the entire move, indicated that she was making special note that a very expensive and fragile marble dining table already packed and crated should be handled with extra care, had me sign a binding not to exceed price order and took a deposit from me on American Express, again reassuring me I could pay the rest on American Express when the goods were delivered, checked her schedule and told me that AVL would be the carrier moving me, and assured me that my price wouldn't/couldn't hike given my items were already packed, weighed, and in storage (5225 lbs)....I could go on and on about all the smooth talking that occurred resulting in my falling hook, line, and sinker for what I heard, resulting in my trusting her, resulting in my hurriedly asigning and faxing documents back so she could immediately get me on AVL schedule to have my goods picked up and moved by AVL as quickly as Feb 11-12 and delivered during the period Feb 17-28. I then made arrangements to fly from Honolulu to Seattle so I would be in Seattle to take delivery of my goods during the period Feb 17-28. I made very, very clear to Gonzalez that if AVL wasn't moving me or if American Express wasn't an acceptable form of payment for the entire move, then I would keep shopping around for a mover who could meet those two bottom line requirements. She assured me that neither would be the case. Two deliverers showed up in Seattle on February 23 who claimed they were from United, Inc., who had no idea who or what AVl was, who indicated that my move had been sold to their company by AVL for $3000 (approximately $500 more than what AVL had in their binding not to exceed price estimate that Gonzalez had me sign), who threatened to drive away with my goods unless I paid approximately an additional $600 beyond the balance due (because they claimed my 5225 lbs that had been picked up now "weighed 5880 lbs," who refused to take American Express for the balance payment, who demanded an additional $118 because I was then forced at the last minute to use a bank card in order to avoid their threats to drive away with my items, who attempted to extract an additional $100 in cash in order to uncrate my marble table (which once uncrated we discovered broken because of their careless handling of it despite my pleading with them to please be extra careful with this extremely fragile item)....the entire delivery experience was a horrible nightmare of an experience and caused a great deal of personal stress to myself, my daughter, and my grandchildren!! (And AVL cannot put a dollar value on this stress.) I have no idea who United, Inc. is and they appeared suspect to me but they had my items in a PENSKE truck!! It felt horrible to know that Gonzalez and AVL had duped me. To date, AVL is refusing to resolve this matter, Gonazalez has not returned any of my calls or responded to my email communications, a Sheryl Jones/AVL has indifferently told me that I should take up any concerns I have about the weight discrepancy and hiked up charges with United, Inc.(the first time I even heard of this latter outfit was when these men showed up in Seattle and they brought no completed paperwork with them; they appeared as though they were just two guys who were going to collect as much money as they could from me if I were to get my stuff and I would never have agreed to have an outfit I had not even been in touch with move me)!. Jones indicated she would reimburse me the $118 that these delivererss extracted from me for using my bank card because they would not take American Express but then went on to send me a "Global Release of Liability" document that I must sign in 30 days if I want $118 bank charges reimbursed....I could go on and on with other details but the bottom line the way I see it is simply this: I have been duped by AVL and I wish for no one else to experience what I currently am experiencing...and I hope Angie's List will help me to do this. Unfortunately, I didn't have anyone who may have had a similar experience with this rogue outfit do this for me and I am paying a price and it cannot be measured in $$$$.

This company provided the lowest- quality movers that one could imagine: lazy, slow, clumsy, rude, and aloof. Some of my most expensive stuff was damaged, and I could get no one on the phone to reconcile the issues afterwards. As a consumer, this is one of the worst companies that I have ever dealt with.